High Agency

Mo Dhaliwal

[00:00:00] Welcome to Hi Agency, where we ignite conversations that drive change and spark momentum towards transformative action and professional mastery. The ability to adapt, lead, and execute is more crucial than ever, especially in the realm of startups and rapidly growing companies. Startups are the lifeblood of innovation, with over 300 million created globally each year. These ventures aren’t just about new ideas; they’re about fostering adaptability and embracing change. Startups that scale quickly are 50% more likely to succeed long term, highlighting the importance of agile leadership. Now, we Re- witnessing unprecedented change across many industries, and in particular in the automotive sector. Startups are the lifeblood of innovation, with over 300 million created globally each year. The shift towards electrification is revolutionary, with EVs projected to dominate 58% of new car sales.  By 2040, revenue is expected to reach $1 trillion, and the two-wheeled world is following suit, with electric motorcycle sales in the US surging 55% in just early 2024. At the forefront of this revolution is Vancouver’s Damon Motorcycles. They recreating electric motorcycles with horsepower and range that far exceeds combustion sport bikes. Companies with strong change management like this are 3. 5 times more likely to outperform their peers, and while those that are prioritizing adaptability are 6. 7 times more likely to recover quickly from economic downturns. This underscores the critical role of leaders who can navigate uncertainty, inspire teams, and pivot strategies in evolving markets. Now, behind every industry shift and innovative product are individuals driving this change. Leaders who see possibilities where others see obstacles. And today we’ Re: going to explore the story of one such leader who embodies the spirit of high agency in the face of daunting challenges and exciting opportunities. It’s a journey of adaptation, leadership, and above all else, just getting shit done. So we’re talking about tech visionary, marketing maverick, and fitness enthusiast, Amber Spencer. She’s the CMO of Damon Motorcycles. And with a decade in the tech sector, Amber has ignited growth across industries from SaaS to automotive. Her leadership has transformed some of these enterprises into powerhouses, crafting world-class brands. And at this electric motorbike startup, she driven $88 million in pre-orders. As the brains behind Damon Motorcycles’ meteoric rise, she’s proven her ability to turn innovation into market dominance. And when she’s not deadlifting or revolutionizing businesses, Amber shares her insights on balancing peak health with entrepreneurial success. Welcome, Amber.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:03:06] thank you for having me.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:03:09] so today you’re the CMO at Damon Motorcycles. We worked together a very long time ago at Skyrocket. And I’m interested to learn about your journey in between these points.  Because we were working together in a very different capacity. What I only just now realized was a long time ago. And you had a really fantastic rise in the time since then and done some amazing things. But I would say anybody that came across you today or saw your profile today would mostly associate you with Damon Motorcycles and the growth there. But how did you get here? How are you now the CMO of Damon Motorcycles? And what’s your journey been like over the past decade?

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:03:53] it’s a great question. I would say the biggest thing that got me from where I was at Skyrocket and then to where I’m at as a CMO is really just following my passion. I wouldn't say in the beginning I really knew where it was going to take me. Skyrocket was a great jumping off point. And it was an introduction to startup life. And the tech sector at the time because Skyrocket was working with some startups. And so I was researching those startups and chatting with the team, designers, and developers. And that really piqued my interest in learning more about building software products and technology. So my next step after Skyrocket was to go to coding school. So I took three courses. Three months off. Borrowed some money from my parents. And did the coding school. Learned how to code. And following that I worked in a tiny startup at the time. I was like the third employee at a company called Modern Advisor. And while I was at coding school, I knew that I wanted to do something in marketing. Because I was always interested in the marketing side of things. The creative side of things. And in a way, software development was creative. At the coding school, we built apps. But we also sort of created the product idea. We created the wireframes. And then we built the product. And I really loved the creative side of it. As I went along at Modern Advisor and in my career, I’ve had a hard time finding a company that really wanted somebody that could do coding and also do marketing. Modern Advisor was a good start to that because the company was so small. So, I built the initial onboarding process and the initial Modern Advisor app. I did have a senior developer to work with, thankfully, at the time since I was junior when I joined that company. And the company then needed to do customer interviews. Needed to start doing some marketing. So, I kind of stepped into that hybrid role at that company. As my career progressed, I moved through a few different smaller companies working in technology. I did some technology consulting. And, to be honest. So within those, I would say around six years between Skyrocket and finding Damon Motorcycles I was taking on so much. And I was trying to do all of these things and be all of these things. I really think that experience was very beneficial.  It was definitely not the usual path for a marketer, I would say. But understanding how developers work. Understanding the engineering side of things through having been through that process. I feel like really put me in a good position to move into more of a product slash marketing role.  How I found Damon Motorcycles. Now this leads back to the passion side of things. I love the technology. Again, I love the marketing side of things. For a period of my life, I didn’t do a lot of things. That really lit me up, like, really that I was super passionate about. And so I took a personal development course. Again this was about seven years in. And from coming out of that personal development course, I really got more connected to who I was as a person. And from there I decided I wanted to get my motorcycle license. It was just like this sudden thing where I' m like shifting focus. Going to get my license. There is a back story to that.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:08:11] I wonder if that’s a common experience of people going through some sort of transformative personal development program, and then coming out of it and just ripping around on motorcycles. Is that a common occurrence, do you think?

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:08:22] It could be. For sure. I mean people have big changes in these events that when people do them. It really is focused on you. Like you as a person and not you as a developer. Or you as somebody doing something. And so from there I kind of took a mental break from all of the hustle. And I started riding. I met a whole load of new friends through that passion. And I became more and more passionate about it. I went to the racetrack. I started racing motorcycles. And this is when I met, through a motorcycle meet event, the CEO of Devo Motorcycles. And I remember meeting him in the parking lot. We were about to go on a group ride. And he started telling me about how he had just started this motorcycle company that was intending to make motorcycles safer. So he was walking around his motorcycle and showing me here’s where the radars are going to be, and here’s where the cameras are going to be. And we’re actually looking at hiring. So I was really interested at that point. Because, I had a great career. But I don’t think I had quite found my full passion. And I was trying to start my own company at the time. But it wasn’t something that I was super passionate about. Motorcycles really had become more of my passion. So, it didn’t take long to join the company. I just went through a series of interviews. And that's

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:09:59] kind of a natural one. If you can find a place for these things to kind of converge.  Because I think anybody, like there’s nobody that is riding a motorcycle that has a mediocre attitude about it. Right. It's

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:10:11] so true.  Yeah.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:10:12] You know because it is something that it’s high risk. Right. Just historically, you know traffic, the rest of it. Just the nature of the vehicle. It’s high risk. So it’s interesting that you’re kind of, you know, doing some self- discovery. Find this passion. But then it kind of converges with some of your experiences. And so, you met him in the parking lot. And how did things progress from there?

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:10:36] Yeah. And one thing on that: I would say that I couldn’t see how my passion would converge with what I knew. And I think that often happens for people. And they were scared to follow what their passion is because they can’t see how it’s going to be successful for me. So, I didn’t see that. But obviously it happened. And so, I met him in the parking lot. He’s telling me about all of this. He. I ended up interviewing with the team. And I joined the team initially in product. So I was sort of semi-developer, working with the developers. And starting to define the product. This is really early on. So I was employee number five. Oh wow. And the rest of the team was engineers plus the CEO.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:11:20] So this is very much like the founding group. Yeah, this is the first team that got put together.

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Amber Louise-Spencer 

[00:11:24] Yeah, this is the first team that got put together. Yeah. And so I started in product and helped the team define how does the safety system work? What does it look like? Where do you put it? The business, like many startups, went through a pivot at some point, as you know. As we started with the safety system. And there was a number of reasons why that was not going to be a viable business. Partially OEMs who would be the people who were selling the system to move very slowly. And they’re also very risk averse. So our vision for making motorcycling safer wasn’t going to come to fruition through them taking one part of this system. For us to do it in full we were going to have to build the motorcycle from the ground up. And so that is what we did. And once that became the mission of the company. I need. We were then selling direct to consumer. We weren’t. We need to be company.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:12:29] But when did you guys realize that though. Like when did the realization happen that.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:12:32] It was early on.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:12:33] Yeah. OK.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:12:34] Yeah, it was pretty early on. It was within I think it was maybe 20. It was within the first year.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:12:39] OK. Yeah.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:12:40] That I started there.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:12:41] That's that's pretty quick. So you guys are obviously quite adaptable.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:12:44] Yeah.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:12:45] Because we've seen more than a number of companies that will continue slogging away in like a sector or with a product or with some sort of solution that can' t find a problem or can' t find a buyer. And so when it comes to something like a safety system, especially for motorcycles, you’d imagine that it’s almost like trying to boil the ocean because to bring it into an OEM that something that really only happens kind of almost like an industry-level change. Right, like, airbags way back when it’s like when they started happening it was like that’s an industry- level change which is a pretty tall order for a startup. But a lot of innovation happens the way that you’re describing, which is that you can’t affect the entire system. Because it’s got its own checks and balances and is sort of tacitly hostile to new ideas to a large extent. But if you go away and you incubate on your own and grow the thing fully so that people can start seeing and interacting with the first time, then there So, actually, some potential for you know not only for that new thing that’s that’s innovative to find a life of its own but also to actually impact the industry which was the intent in the first place.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:13:53] Exactly. Yeah.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:13:55] So, that realization happened. Yeah. And you guys said OK. You know the safety system and trying to sell that isn’t working. So, was it like an Aha moment? Like, I' m always curious about how the realization happened. Like, you know, was it an engineer that came in and like dramatically threw their papers across the room and said, ' We’ve got to build a motorcycle' or... How did you guys like that?

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:14:14] No, it was really internal. The initially, the company I think did go through an accelerator and had some early investors, all of which were you know were telling us that we we should build a motorcycle. We should try and sell to an OEM. We should try and sell the safety system. But of course being on the outside versus being on the inside is different. And so we realized on the inside that this just isn’t going to fly. So what are we going to do to make the vision come to life? So it was more of a like a moment of like we’re going to die if we don’t figure something else out. Like, how are we. And so it was a big big decision to build the motorcycle from the ground up. We actually did some research on gas motorcycles initially. And the decision was made that with the emission standards they’re getting more and more like hard to abide by. And the gas engine is so complex. And the future really is in EVs. We knew the future was in EVs. And so we had to look at, okay how do we make an electric motorcycle? An electric vehicle version of this motorcycle that can be competitive with today’s existing gas motorcycles. We knew just grabbing some you know things off the shelf and shoving them together weren’t going to get us where we needed to go to get the safety systems into the market.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:15:44] So I mean, there were some things that I was watching while taking a motorcycle that were really interesting. And I was paying attention. And you know, I' m not sure if you specifically were trying to you know maybe take a page out of Tesla’s book. But there were some parallels that I saw. And I' m interested to hear if there was any influence here or at any point did the team say, ' Well, there' s a trajectory that we've seen and maybe we can map that a little bit.' So one of them was that you know for a company that is largely a technology startup. Right. Because you came up with the sensors and the safety system first. But there’s another type of vehicle which is the Tesla that' essentially, a computer with some tires and a body wrapped around it. Right. And so that was one parallel that I saw with Damon which was that actually there’s a lot of technology here. So it seems like it’s like this operating system on two wheels. And the second part of it was that when you' re actually looking for some, you know, brand new adoption in an industry, you can' t actually go mass market. And you can’t actually try to go with some, you know, just put some stuff together off the shelf and call it a motorcycle. You really need something innovative, big, and sexy that’s going to get attention. Right. And that’s why Tesla, for years, all they did was actually do storytelling around the Roadster. Right. Is to aim at a high price point where there’s some range considerations but not a lot. But between the speed and the general sexiness of this thing that nobody had seen before it was so remarkable that that was their sort of entry point. Right. And from there they started, you know, increasingly pushing down market. So has that, you know, did that influence you guys a strategy at all or is this something that you kind of arrived at independently and it just it just worked.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:17:34] No, you hit the nail on the head. We definitely took inspiration from Tesla, and what Tesla had done. We took a brand- first approach, and we knew that to build a company that is going to last, we need to build that brand value, that brand positioning, and secure a place in the consumer’s mind that you know our products are premium - they are just as good or better than what you can get today, which is not the case in in the EV motorcycle industry at all, and definitely wasn’t at the time. And we definitely modeled after Tesla in some respects. Definitely. Yeah. Because they have been so successful. So we definitely took some pages out of their book. The Hypersport which is our you know first like halo product you would call it first product is a product that we we needed to make sure that in the consumer’s mind this was something that they would want to switch to from their gas motorcycle. And it had to be one of the highest performing you know best motorcycles that you can get out there which are sport you know typically sport motorcycles. They’re the highest performance. Not saying they’re the best motorcycles but they’re the highest performance. And so, to showcase that Damon is able to create a motorcycle that can, you know, be in the league with with the top of the line, absolute best motorcycles that you can buy on the market today.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:19:07] Yeah. I mean, and like I hope you don’t take this as a criticism but I got to point out the irony a little bit, of a company was founded on the idea of safety. Right. You know, you build like the Hypersport and with like the range and power that this thing has is like, I mean, I've done some writing and I' m quite sure that regardless of what safety system you put into this thing, I think I' d kill myself on it. Like, so how do you sort of balance the fact that you know the initial genesis of the idea was this safety system but actually you’ve created a device that is ridiculously powerful.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:19:48] Yeah, I know I love that. I love that question. I like the criticism. I like the criticism, and I love answering this question. So, you know we thought about this, and you know the people don’t really buy safety. You know, I mean, I know some people do, but if you’re a motorcyclist, you want to be safe, but you’re not going to buy.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:20:12] That’s not your primary. Safety, of course.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:20:13] You know, safety. It’s going to be, this motorcycle is really cool, looks great, and I can justify it because it’s safer. You know, and it’s not something as a motorcyclist you think you go out, and you’re like, oh, I hope I don’t get hit today. It doesn’t even cross your mind. You’re just like this is a decision decision I made. I' m riding my motorcycle. I love it. And that’s that. And so in creating again like the brand it was really a brand decision to go with the highest performance fastest motorcycle that we could create without creating that we’re just going to be another you know X brand that is like so and so maybe we get it maybe we won’t like we really had to be like this premium motorcycle. Now the motorcycle does have the safety system integrated into it. And of course you can turn that off if you’re more of a truck motorcycle rider. A lot of people take the sport motorcycles to the racetrack and in which case yes you would turn the safety systems off. Race tracks are typically safer than than road going. You don’t have a closed circuit. Exactly. And then when you are riding the motorcycle on the street it does have safety. The safety system to keep you safe. And that was really the best way to get it into into the market. You know we want to get into the market. You have to have people that are going to buy it and people buy sexy people buy things that make them feel good. People buy things for their ego. That’s why they buy. And so, we created a product that you know, like you said, like that markets more premium market people that can afford it to to start creating that that that brand. Cache, I guess you would say, was why we went for that.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:21:56] So from that the point that you had that Eureka moment of the only way this is going to work is if we build a motorcycle, from that to actually securing eighty- eight million dollars in orders. What was that path like? Loaded question, I know.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:22:15] So I mean, we did a lot of research, customer research. So I was had the benefit of being very passionate about the industry and being very involved in the industry. And so, I was living the life of these motorcyclists or the target market. I was very much talking to them. And even before we decided to create the motorcycle from the ground up I was already talking to people about the safety system about how it should work. We had people tested out on some models. Some motorcycles. And so I was already sort of understanding the the market itself. So when it came to our marketing and you know as a small company you don' t have a budget you do initially don' t have a team. And so we really as a team you know I have I had a strong we have a strong leader. You know we had good engineering leadership who really understand the value of marketing so that when you come up with an idea about how we should. You know, launching the initial product, what the event should look like, it' s received really well. And the team works together to bring the vision to life. So that was essentially how we did it. We it was coming together thinking, ' How are we going to do this on the initial?' I would say launch is in like when we launched the product concept to the world and started taking preorders. We we went we tried to go as big as we could with this. With the budget that we had. We launched at CES, what we were in collaboration with one of our partners that we were working with on the motorcycles as one of our suppliers. So, that cost of being there was less than say trying to do a big booth by yourself. I because I was connected with the industry and the community, I brought in an influencer to help us launch it, which we only really had to pay for him to be there. And he just did all of the content for us. And then again, just went forward and did the organic marketing. We brought in a little bit of contract help for advertising and we really grew from there and we grew the order book. Once it had that jumping off point where we sort of had our initial launch which went very well, it was supported by PR as well. That. When we started needing to bring out on more people into the team, so initially hired some contractors. We had so many inbound emails and you know messages, and at the time I was doing all of it. I was doing taking the photographs. You know I was posting on the social media. I was writing the captions. I was replying to people. I was designing the website. Oh, you know I was doing everything.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:25:09] CMO at a startup sounds sexy. You realize what it entails.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:25:13] Yeah. And you know if I didn’t know how to do something, I would just take a course on Udemy. Or I would go in, figure out how to do it, and come back, you know, and just get it done. So that’s essentially, you know, how we did it. And again, like it wasn’t just me. It was definitely having a really strong team and a team that understood the value of marketing and the value of brand, and having the support of the engineering team. Often, engineering is at odds with marketing, but if you have a really good relationship... often, yeah, yeah. I mean, even if you have a really good relationship, it could be challenging right? It’s like a push and pull. But having a good team was also obviously a big reason for our success, yeah, yeah.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:25:52] That’s incredible. And especially that sort of alignment. And it’s you know it. It is quite heartening to hear about a leadership a team that understood the importance of brand and had that much alignment. And you know, I don' t think I' d be overstating it if I said like it' s it' s rare. I’ve had more than a few occasions of working with startups and in technology space. And there’s an understanding that an engineering team is there to support product development and that product has to be brought to market. But there are sometimes varying visions around where the product should go. And sometimes it’s based on perhaps asymmetry of knowledge and information. And sometimes it’s just ego. Right. I’ve worked very closely with an engineer years ago like incredibly talented. And we’re talking like a 10x engineer. That could do more in an hour that a team could probably do in a day. But at one point, tried to convince me that you know we should have what he called our solution internally for how to build a software product. And the client, you know we’ll have to do something separate for the client. We can call that the client solution. And I realized that like this is a very talented person, incredibly talented engineer. But the misalignment was so great that this person didn’t understand that our entire reason for being is the client. We don’t have any reason; we only exist to serve the client. t have any reason to create solutions that aren’t the client solution. And you know that sort of alignment I think sometimes can show up through hiring sometimes through coaching. But did you have any occasion where that alignment didn’t exist or you know perhaps there was new hires. You guys are growing very quickly. And sometimes you pick up some strays. Right. And not everybody is fully on board and aligned. So was it a lightning strike? Was it that every single person that you guys added to the team was just you know fully on board and straight as an arrow. Or were there some occasions where actually, you guys did have to, you know, do a lot of coaching and perhaps, you know, workshop the wider group so that they could be brought into the vision.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:28:03] It was definitely not a straight line. Yeah. And it was a lot of lessons for me as a as a as a manager. It was a lot of lessons for the company even though the management had been in multiple companies before. Every person and every hire is different. And the process that each company goes through for hiring those people is different. When you’re a small company, you tend to have less process. And that’s a really good thing thing for moving quickly. Sometimes it’s not such a great thing for making mistakes. You move too quickly. You bring on somebody who is just can be a great person. And they’re just not the right fit for the organization. And we definitely had those moments. We ended up implementing a much more stringent hiring process. And it’s something that I will take with me everywhere I go now. Because it’s so painful for everybody when you have to let somebody go. Even some managers don’t want to do that. And so you really have to have the right management. Who are willing to move the company in the direction it needs to go in terms of people.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:29:23] And that process is critical. Especially when you’re getting to a point where, you know. Re not a startup anymore. With $88 million in orders, you’re now a scale- up. You’re serious and you’re about growing to the next level. You probably heard the saying before: that you’re supposed to hire people. You have to hire slow and fire fast. And I personally, in my own business, probably spent years doing the opposite early on. Where we would hire quickly. And then fire very, very slowly. And just limp along needlessly for a long time. But it sounds like you guys learned those lessons pretty quickly. And the hiring process that you’re describing. Is there something specific that was implemented? Was it through recruitment? Or what did that look like? And what was the lasting sort of framework that you’re talking about that you would take with you?

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:30:15] Yeah. So I think it really starts with if you’re implementing something that you haven’t done initially. You’re going to have some people on your team that are maybe not a great fit. So in this case, implementing a much more stringent performance review process. And really letting that person know how can they improve. Like being really specific. And being really okay with being candid with that person. And it doesn’t mean uncaring. Like I will never, ever be uncaring with my team. I’ll always care about every single person. But also not letting that caring and that softness allow them to limp along. So really letting them know over a period of a few months. And really documenting everything. Having everything written down. Hey, we spoke about this a couple of weeks ago. We haven’t seen any improvements. And they’re going to start to get warnings that things are going to change. If things don’t, if they don’t change or improve. Or, you know, the fit just isn't right. So that would be the first thing. In the hiring process, I don’t, I like to work with HR. We typically didn't have any in the beginning. And so we as a team implemented our own hiring process. So for each team member that joins the team, they’re going to have a specific job description. And things that they, we know that they’re going to need to take on. And in a startup, that can be multiple things. Absolutely.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:31:49] You need to put on a lot of hats.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:31:50] Yeah. And so finding the right fit can be sometimes challenging in that case. And so going with somebody who has a narrow skill set and trying to put them in a role that has a broad skill set is maybe not a great idea. And so how we would filter for that is, first of all, having a really great job description. That is, first of all, attracts. The type of talent that you want to attract. I mean, you’re really marketing the company at that point. You’re not just writing, like, here’s all the things you need to do. But here, join this, you know, very exciting company. Here’s all the awesome things that you’re going to need to do. Really write it in the style of writing that you would want to read a job description in to try and attract that talent. And, of course, being in the places that your talent is. You know, are they in the U. S. somewhere? Are they, is it, you know, where are they hanging out? Are they on vacation? Are they on forums? Like making sure that the company shows up in those locations so that you can really attract the right talent. Because if you have a great job description, then you don’t get the right applicants. You’re going to be spending your time trying to headhunt or find them. So really trying to attract and minimize the time looking for good talent. And then having a great onboarding process. So interview process. So we implemented multiple steps in our interview process. First of all, we will do. Sort of a, you know, review the resume and then do an initial interview to see if it’s a good culture fit. And then we’ll do a skills test. And this was, I' m familiar with this when I was a developer because I would have to do skills tests. But a lot of the time in marketing or other, you know, jobs, I never had to do anything like that.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:33:29] No, we tend to hire, especially in marketing, on a lot of, you know, great narrative and vibes.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:33:35] Yeah. Which didn’t work for us. So we implemented a proper skills test. And each test will be different depending on the job. Because, like I said, if they’re not doing a single, just a single job, they’re going to need to do multiple things. Then I’ll put something together that won’t be too hard for them to do or take too much time. You obviously don’t want to take up too much of someone’s time. But maybe it’ll take a couple hours for them to put something together that will really demonstrate that this person has the skills. Like they are able to do the job. And it’s not a perfect formula. But it’s something that really, really helped. And especially with that skills test, you can really see the type of work that person does. Is it the right type of work for the company? I mean, it might be the right type of work for another company, but maybe not for ours. And then finally, the last step in this process, once they Re on boarded, is having a really solid 30, 60, 90 plan. So, really writing down, here’s the expectations we expect within the first month. Checking in with them. Helping them. Training them. Making sure that they’re excelling in that 30, 60, 90. And then if it’s not the right fit by the end of the 90 days, they know themselves. It’s not so hard on them. They’re like, okay, this is not the right fit for me. We’re like, this is not the right fit for us. Thank you so much. And it’s just much easier than getting past 30, 60, 90, six months down the road. It’s painful for everyone. And you'

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:35:01] re limping along and expectations still aren’t clear. Yeah, absolutely. There was probably a time, maybe early in my career, where if somebody wasn't a fit or before I had the agency, if I worked in another company and if I was managing people and something was or someone wasn't a fit, there would be a lot of guilt and this sort of intense emotion. And empathy is always good. Caring is always good. But it wasn't until someone helped me realize that actually letting someone go when they’re not a good fit, it can actually be quite liberating. And that fit is like a two-way street. Because if they’re not a fit for the company, then that means they’re not actually activating their full potential either. And it might be an act of mercy to liberate them, to allow them to continue the search and go find something that is a good fit, that’s going to light them up, that they can be passionate about and actually put themselves into and bring their whole self into. And when I embraced that, then it became easier. And so thankfully, we’ve made far fewer bad hires in recent years than we did years ago. But on the occasion where it’s happened, it’s been very much that conversation around liberation of you need to be in a place where you can fully show up with your skills and what’s unique about you. And we need to have somebody that fits this better. And because of that two-way street, it’s more of a separation. It’s not like a, you know, top-down firing. You’re a bad person. Get out of here. Get out of the conversation. Absolutely.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:36:34] Yeah.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:36:39] So let me think here. So the hiring, I just lost my train of thought. There was something I wanted to pull out from the hiring conversation again. Oh, I remember what it was. So we were also guilty early on of actually creating very narrow sort of functional job descriptions. And these were job descriptions that spelled out tasks. Duties, responsibilities, the things that we’ve seen a million times, but did little to attract a cultural fit. And second to that, they did very little to actually scare off the wrong candidates, saying, ' You know, even though we need these narrow functional skills, here' s a broad area of responsibilities and purview that you' re going to need.' And it took me a long time to realize that within our team. And I think even with me as an individual. Like I only do well with T-shaped individuals. Right. And these are people that they might have a deep specialization in one area, but they have a broad understanding and they can get by and they can hold their own ground in a number of different conversations. And then there’s very rare occasions where you’ll meet an X-shaped person. And X-shaped people are really interesting because they’re a little bit more on the polymath front. Right. They’re actually potentially, you know, either experts or able to rapidly learn and become experts and kind of like any area you put them in. But more than that, they’re able to pull from multiple areas and pull multiple disciplines together to get some job done. Right. And what you’re describing in your environment is interesting because it’s early days of a startup. You need T-shaped people because, you know, somebody might need to, I don’t know, clean the office after they’re done engineering a motorcycle. It’s a startup. But in your role and in the leadership, it seems like there was a good appreciation for X-shaped people as well because the reliance wasn't just on you kind of coming in with some knowledge, but being able to say there' s some area where I have no knowledge. I need to dive deep, figure it out, become an expert, get it done and move on so we can continue harnessing the energy of the team and moving forward. And that sort of perspective and that learning, I think it’s hard to plan for because I had heard these terms and been told by advisors and mentors what to sort of look out for. And I never quite got it until we had made the mistakes a number of times. Right. And so these days, some of the shorthand I use to kind of filter candidates or potential team members is thinking about entrepreneurialism, actually. Right. What does that mean? What does that mean to somebody who has an entrepreneurial spirit? And one of the ways I actually even test for that is in an interview question, at some point, I'll ask the question and I'll say, on your last day at Skyrocket, where are you leaving to go? Right. And I think that the candidates and I feel like I’m kind of giving up our secrets now, so maybe I'll have to come up with a new question. But, you know, the candidates that might not be a candidate. They might not be a great fit, are a little spooked by that question and they might waffle a little bit. And the responses will be like, well, you know, if I' m having a good time at the company, you know, why would I leave? Right. And in today’s environment, like nobody’s a lifer. We’re in constant modes of transition. I am. You are. You know, why wouldn't something change? Right. So anybody that isn't a good fit tends to waffle around that a little bit. What’s really interesting is the candidates that have a really clear answer to that. Right. And they’ll think about it a little bit and they’ll say, ' Well, here’s what I really want to do in life.' And I think if I come to Skyrocket and if I do this for a couple of years, I think I’ll be able to do that. And that is fascinating to me because then our conversation, in fact, the interview starts becoming a conversation about their passions, how we plug into their passions and how we can actually be a vehicle to help them reach full potential. And as they work with us to help us reach ours. Right. Beyond that. Yeah. Some one of the frameworks and the rigor that you guys brought to your process, because what you're describing sounds awesome and rigorous. And I think I' m going to be harassing some people here afterwards to be like, we need to be more rigorous. Listen to what Amber said. But are there any shorthand or are there any sort of tricks like this that you've come up with where you can kind of identify and sniff out the people that you want to work with, as opposed to those that you might you might give a pass?

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:41:23] I think what you’re talking about is more on the soft scale. I mean, I wouldn't say there’s any particular question or any more of a hard strategy to that. I think I' m pretty well plugged into people’s energy. And I really, in terms of my management style, I really care about the person. So I really, in each interview process, I want to know about them. I guess similar to sort of what you said, it’s just in a different way - what are their passions? What are their interests? What do they care about? What does their life look like? And how is Damon going to fit into that life? And I think, again, like it comes from more of a genuine wanting to understand the person, which gives me an understanding of how their way of being or energy can fit into the energy of the person. So, there definitely is an energy feeling. And often I like to meet them in person, you know, and get a feel and bring them into the office and they get a feel of the team. So I would say there is that process, but that that process is more of an organic, natural process than a very stringent one.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:42:46] And the team and culture, it continues to evolve because you’re scaling the business and growing rapidly. So, you mentioned that there are some structural changes happening as far as where the engineering teams are based. What’s happening in Canada versus the United States? Has that impacted the culture at all? Or how is the team holding together today?

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:43:11] The team that we have today, a lot of them have been with the business for years. And since we've integrated this better hiring processes, the people that we do bring on, there is an integration period. But I would say the culture itself is really created by the people and like the managers and the people that have been with the company. So I wouldn't say that any of those changes have impacted it in such a way that it would change any of the outcomes of the business. It will always be in flux and things will always be changing and adjusting in terms of locations and team makeups and everything like that. But I think that the team that we have has a very strong connection to the mission of the company. And with that kind of passion, I believe that it will, you know, maybe until we’re like hundreds of thousands of people, then definitely things will change. But as we’re scaling up, I think that we have a good handle on keeping the culture as enjoyable as possible.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:44:16] Yeah. And this is going to be a bit of a personal question, but do you guys wind up hiring a lot of fitness enthusiasts?

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:44:27] I wouldn’t I wouldn’t say so. I mean, definitely some people we have one engineer who does crazy marathons and triathlons and is is incredible. I mean, and certainly some people are into fitness, but I wouldn't say the majority of the team is into fitness now.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:44:48] Yeah. The reason I asked that it was that was a very bad segue into this. This thing that I just wanted to mention, because I remember from our experience working together, I would see you working out all the time, taking supplements and lifting crazy amounts of weights. And it just dawned on me recently that one of my team members actually sent an article where some analysts in the States had actually examined, you know, large publicly traded companies and determined which ones had CEOs that basically did a lot of weight lifting. Right. Or some sort of, you know, combat sports, but something really intense. Right. And something, you know, very physical and put together this thing called the deadlift ETF. And so this particular security, you know, indexes, you know, beyond the S &P 500. So the companies that he' s got in the deadlift ETF, apparently they outperform their counterparts by like one hundred and forty percent over the past four years. And so. So he’s drawing this like pretty direct correlation between like if you deadlift, you know, you’re going to be in the ETF and we we're going to invest in your company. And, you know, it’s kind of interesting because I think, you know, correlation isn't causation. But I've, you know, seen you from years ago and I think till today be really focused on physical health and, you know, keeping that sort of primary above all else. And I think especially in startup culture, sometimes there's a tendency to sort of toss everything to the wind because there’s urgency. Right. And I started this conversation with a stat that startups that maintain their focus on urgency and adaptability, you know, have a 50 percent higher survival rate than those that don't. Right. So, that sort of idea of balance, of keeping the physical self-healthy, even though you' re in a startup and even though things are intense and you' re trying to sort of. Survive in the first couple of years. How do you balance that and not chuck it out the window when work demands were calling?

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:46:57] I think I mean, I see fitness as a way of working on oneself. And I've always seen the biggest growth and my very best work when I' m working on myself, whether that’s physical or mental or taking a break to think. I think sometimes we think by going into a tunnel and just doing everything that we possibly can. As fast as we can, that we’re going to be productive and half the time it so, definitely not productive. We’re tired. We’re making mistakes. We’re not thinking properly. Maybe we’re doing way more work than we need to because there’s another way of doing it that we can't think of. So over the years, I mean, I was really addicted to working out in the beginning for sure. And I didn't really see that correlation in the beginning. But over time and as I've matured and done more and more work on myself and I see. My ability to think and my ability to do better work improve when I' m prioritizing myself, you know, prioritizing my health. I' m feeling good. I' m not tired. I' m not overworked. I mean, there’s definitely times that you have to not go to the gym and maybe you won’t get all your meals in that day because this is a really big launch and we got to get this done. And there’s a deadline. There’s always going to be that those days or weeks, you know, where you’re where you’re really hustling. But like you said, it’s balanced. So once that' s over, I just go right back to my working out and my meditation and whatever else it is that I' m doing for myself. And I just think it’s a case of if you have the time to if you can make the time to work on yourself, you’re going to increase your productivity. And you won' You need to work as much because you have more of your brain capacity to think better and therefore do better work, and find ways of doing things that are just as efficient. As if you were working, you know, double the time, not all the time, certain things, you know, of course. But as a general statement, I would say that that’s true.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:48:59] Yeah. And I' m not sure if it was like subconsciously your influence and me knowing that I'd be talking to you today. But today was the first time I worked out before a podcast. So you wouldn't know this because you weren't here for previous recordings. But I feel exceptionally lucid in comparison to other recording sessions we've had. You know, I. I think in closing, you know, I' m going to I' m going to sound a little bit like an Amber Spencer fanboy here, but the podcast is called High Agency. And I' m just really happy to be speaking with you because of anybody that sort of embodies that. I think your life and your career due to a large extent, highly adaptable, can do attitude, get shit done, learn what you don' t know. Become an expert in fields that are necessary. And you've just been moving and adapting. And I think to some extent, maybe not giving yourself enough credit because you mentioned, you know, that early in your career that, you know, it wasn't like a straight path or what have you. And I don’t think any of the linear journeys are the interesting ones. Right. It’s like a Steve Jobs thing. Right. That you can only connect the dots looking backwards. Right. So who would have known that from working with us to then deciding to become a software developer, to then integrating that into marketing, to then actually joining this company' s leadership and helping a startup. I think if one was to look back at your career, it looks like a masterstroke because it’s like, of course, you just stacked one thing on top of the other. But I think in the moment at the time, we sometimes don’t realize when we are following our passions and doing what we think is right. That’s not meant to be linear. Right. And that we’re going to map out our territory and connect the dots looking backwards.

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:50:52] Yeah, absolutely.

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:50:54] Well, thanks for your time today. That was Amber Spencer, CMO of Damon Motorcycle. So you’re doing some fractional CMO work and you’re consulting with startups. If somebody wanted to learn more about you, where would they go? How would somebody connect with you?

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Amber Louise-Spencer

[00:51:12] So you can find me on LinkedIn. And I also have a website, which is growWithAmber.co

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Mo Dhaliwal

[00:51:18] GrowwithAmber.co. All right. Thanks, Amber. Well, hopefully we’ve given you a lot to think about. That was high agency. Like and subscribe, and we’ll see you next time.

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